Ian Goldin, Guest Writer
Ideology: Liberal Independent | Writing From: George Washington University
On October 10th and 11th, thousands of students, service members, and others will converge in Washington to fight for equal rights. The demand is simple: we want equal protection for LGBT people in all matters governed by civil law in all 50 states.
This issue is of particular importance for our generation. This is our civil rights movement – we see the issue of LGBT equality as a part of a much larger struggle for social justice. However, there is no singular leader for this movement. We have no Martin Luther King, no Rosa Parks, and no Susan B. Anthony. All of us are the leaders, and each of us has a responsibility to stand up and fight for justice and equality for ourselves, for our friends, and for millions of strangers.
Every day, LGBT people are being accepted by more and more of the population throughout the country. As more people come out to their friends, family, and coworkers, the more people start to accept it as something normal. We are seeing that young people are coming out at earlier ages. A recent New York Times article interviewed middle school students that were in some stage of coming out. These are 12 and 13 year olds. Middle school is difficult enough without the stress of worrying about how to deal with your sexual or gender orientation. According to one study outlined in the article, “teenagers in ‘rejecting families’ were significantly more likely to have attempted suicide, used drugs and engaged in unprotected sex than those who were raised in accepting families.” These kids need as much support as we can give them, both in the home and at school. The issue isn’t just about the principle of equality – it’s about the safety and health of our children.
Again, LGBT equality isn’t just about LGBT people. It affects everyone. That’s why thousands of straight allies are going to be joining march – because we recognize Dr. King’s idea that “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” Let me be clear: LGBT inequality is grave injustice, and there are countless examples of these injustices that occur unknown every day.
For example, Todd Belok – a friend of mine, and a fellow student at George Washington University – was kicked out of Navy ROTC last year for being gay. He was denied his dream and his chance at a scholarship because of who he is. That is injustice. The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN) has been fighting ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ since 1993, and it has taken up Todd’s cause. Todd is not alone, however. Almost 13,000 service members have been discharged as a result of DADT since 1994, according to the SLDN. At a time when our troops are stretched thin between two wars, discharging them for their sexual orientation is not the right strategy. As Roosevelt said, “A man who is good enough to shed his blood for the country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards.”
Marriage equality is another issue that needs to be addressed. By denying gay and lesbian couples the right to marry, the Federal government is denying them 1,138 Federal benefits and responsibilities. Frequently, the argument against marriage equality is based in religious beliefs. Opponents claim that if the Federal government allowed gays and lesbians to marry, then churches would be forced to marry them, infringing on their right to religious freedom. Despite the fact that this is an outright lie, the same argument can be claimed by our side. In fact, many religious denominations (including mine, the Episcopal Church) perform same-sex marriages. So, since the government has outlawed Federal recognition of same-sex marriages, then my right to religious freedom is being infringed upon, as well as the rights of thousands of other Americans. Due to marriage inequality, 34 states still block hospital visitation for gay couples. That is not a Christian value.
The Jim Crow laws are now widely seen as a blemish on American history, and eventually, DOMA and DADT will join them. However, it took a long, difficult struggle for Civil Rights to make America see that separate was actually unequal. Likewise, the struggle for LGBT rights has been long and difficult, and we are far from finished. Dr. King said, “Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men.” With all due respect for Dr. King, times have changed. Now, it’s going to take the tireless efforts of men, women, and everyone in between.
So I implore you: if you believe in justice and equality, if you believe in the American paramount of equal protection under law, if you believe in any set of morals or values, then join us in our march. LGBT people everywhere deserve your support. We are your friends, your family, and your coworkers. We educate your children, we take care of you when you’re sick, and we protect you while you sleep. John F. Kennedy’s inaugural address holds new meaning for us, just as it did for people in 1961: ”The torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans, born in this century… unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today.” Join us:
Sunday, October 11th, 2009
Washington, DC
12:00 pm – March leaves from 15th and I St. NW (Near McPherson Square)
2:00 pm – Rally on the West Lawn of the Capitol
http://nemstudents.org/
http://www.nationalequalitymarch.com/
What is your problem with don’t ask don’t tell? It allows gays to serve the military without judgment from their peers?
Marriage is between one Man and one Woman. Perhaps your generation needs to grow up a few years and experience marriage first before you realize it’s not about rights, it’s about children and a relationship with God.
Although I am pro-gay I don’t think you can compare the enormous struggles of the African-American civil right movement to the current LBGT civil rights movement.
Bonnie,
First of all, increased civil rights and acceptance of different groups do not tend to be something that generations “grow out of” – and talking down to youth as the basis of your argument detaches yourself from the ability to learn from new perspectives. A new generation that is rid of prejudiced and biases will be the basis of societal growth – as we enter into the public sphere, that sphere will change.
Secondly, marriage as you say, is not just about children and a relationship to god. You may believe that, and you may believe that for the people in your life, but it is simply not true in society today.
If that were true, it would be illegal for heterosexual couples over the age of say 50 to get married. It would also be illegal for sterile couples to get married.
Further, if it were about children, if that was really what society cared about, then gay couples with healthy relationships and strong financial means would be far better candidates for marriage then the results of a drunken one night stand and a shotgun teenage wedding.
About religion, if it really were about a relationship to god, then atheists Americans would be barred from marriage.
Your argument is emotional, and illogical. If you don’t want gay couples to get married, so be it that’s your emotional opinion. But marriage IS a right in society, it is a financial break and a contract of commitment that two people who love each other (in theory) engage with, and it is backed by the State. There are no requirements for religion or children, and many who engage with marriage today don’t believe in god and/or never have children. Limiting it to a man and a woman has no rational basis beyond homophobia.
Bonnie,
“it’s not about rights, it’s about children and a relationship with God.”
First of all, marriage is about love; we don’t need to grow up to see that. Children, and a relationship with God are optional parts of marriage – you cannot (and sometimes should not) have either of those without love.
Secondly, even if that were the case and your views were actually rational, tell me, are homosexuals incapable of forming relationships with God? Are they incapable of being involved in a child’s life?
Actually, I’m more interested in your answer to this: as someone who clearly has her own relationship with God, to whom does He deny his love or forgiveness?
I agree with Stephanie, your argument is emotional, and illogical, and lacks any rationality.
Om,
I agree that there are huge differences between the Civil Rights movement and the LGBT rights movement, and that African Americans had to endure horrible things.
However, you can’t deny the fact that the LGBT rights movement is a fight for equal rights, and that we’ve had to endure some pretty horrible things too (i.e. Matthew Shepard).
I’m not trying to one-up the Civil Rights movement, and I’m not trying to say that one struggle is somehow more valid than the other. Your comment, however, achieves nothing; it simply delays progress by dividing the people who should be fighting together.
Stephanie,
I find it of interest that you capitalize “State” but no “god.” Perhaps this is indicative of your allegiances. You respect the name of government but not of God?
It is written many times that man shall not lie with man (lev.) and other times in Romans and Deuteronomy that homosexuality is wrong – and as a believer of the Word, I don’t see why homosexuals can’t just accept civil unions, or some sort of union without impeding on marriage itself – something God, not governments, has established.
March all you want, but you cannot change the written word.
Marie,
God doesn’t deny his love to anyone, it is offered to all – but there are those, like gays, who choose to reject it.
Choice or curse, they embrace it all the same.
To answer your other questions, homosexuals should stay away from children.
My argument is not emotional, if it were I would have argued out of a position of pain or emotion, I argue out of logical fact of what is best for children, and I speak the truth that is “politically incorrect” about gays in our country.
‘Believer,’
At first, I didn’t think it was worth it to respond to your ridiculous comment, but that last one was just too funny. So I’m going to give in.
“And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence” – 1 Timothy 2:12
If you’re such a literalist, why are you trying to preach on this site? I don’t actually believe in this message, but my point was to show that the Bible says a lot of things that we recognize as obsolete today. Unless you believe that you are going to hell for eating shellfish, that it’s okay to sell your daughter into slavery, and that you should be stoned for cursing, you don’t take the Bible literally. But that’s okay, because the Bible is meant to be interpreted.
The most important messages in the Bible are about love. Love is what this march is about. Love is what marriage is about. God is love.
“The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” – Galatians 5:14
Bonnie,
If you read the other articles and comments on this website, you will see that here if you want to convince people, you have to back your argument up with proof, not just a statement such as yours about homosexuals and children. We challenge you to prove your statement with facts or explanations.
Bonnie & Believer,
How much shall my uncle sell his daughter for? Exodus 20 suggests good prices.
Which of Solomans 700 wives was his “one woman” ?
Am I going to hell because I eat animals with talons or because I shared a soda with a friend of mine who was not a virgin.
Perhaps, since she gave me her soda and she is not a virgin, we should stone her.
The Bible, particularly the old testament should be interpereted with the realization it revolves around jewish law and culture at the time, not necessarily the Word of God.
God’s word is Jesus himself: see John 1:1-6.
As a christian, I follow Jesus’ words, as Ian so summed up with Galatians.
Also: “Judges will be judged and the first shall be last”
Bonnie,
Why do you assume that all gay people reject G-d’s love? There are many gay people, including myself and Ian, who are deeply religious. I cannot speak for others, but I attend religious services at least once a week, and I pray daily. You may think that I am going to Hell because I’m Jewish, but to claim that I reject G-d’s love merely by virtue of the fact that I am gay is quite frankly ridiculous.
Furthermore, you utterly fail to back up your assertions about how I should “stay away from children”. Why do you believe this? Either you have a questionable grasp on the fact that not all gay people want to raise children (at which, by the way, multiple psychological studies say that we are equally good as heterosexuals), and that, furthermore, there are more heterosexual child molesters than homosexual ones.
You say your claims are motivated by logic, yet this is obviously not so: they are motivated by prejudice and ignorance.
Believer,
I will forgive you for misreading Leviticus and Deuteronomy, if only because they are not from your book. They are from the book of my people, the Jewish people.
Obviously, you are operating under one or many of the following delusions: 1. The Bible was written in English (it wasn’t — it was written in Hebrew and Aramaic; the New Testament was written in Ancient Greek, for the most part); 2. That ancient Hebrew and Aramaic words have only one definition which can be clearly deduced from context (this isn’t true at all; ask any Hebrew scholar); 3. That those translating the Bible have no reasons to purposely insert new words, or mistranslate (this is also untrue — for example, some Kings in the Middle Ages instructed Monks to insert passages about Witches, sometimes on pain of death); 4. That the Bible has no real historical frame of reference.
The passage in Leviticus to which you refer uses the Hebrew word “to’ebah” which was translated to “abomination”. This is an incorrect translation — the word would more accurately be translated to “ritually unclean”, and the Torah essentially tells us that “sleeping with another man, as with a woman” is the moral equivalent of eating dinner with an Egyptian. There are other ways to translate and parse this passage as well — including one which instructs us, simply, not to pretend to be a sexuality we are not.
I would also like to note that, at roughly the time that Leviticus was being written, it was a common practice for many people to go to the pagan temples and engage in ritualistic sexual intercourse with male prostitutes. This is, conclude most historical scholars, to what this passage is referring. Such a prohibition makes sense, especially in light of the First Commandment: “I am the Lord your G-d, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Bonnie,
Do you not realize that gays are all around you? Some choose to accept God’s love and some choose to reject it, the very same way straight men and women choose to reject or accept God’s love. Who are you to tell gays that they reject God’s love by being who they are? Did God not make them in His image as He made you and me?
Who are you to tell all homosexuals they should stay away from children? They are blended in with the world today as schoolteachers, policemen and women, CEOs, salesmen, store managers, lawyers, doctors, friends, brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews, aunts and uncles. Who are you to decide that they are not fit to be near children? I am proud to say that I have a handful of respectable and admirable gay friends, all of whom will be incredible parents and role models.
Imagine this: A bank is being robbed, and inside there is a gay man and his younger brother. The robber, a straight man, shoots the young boy but his older, homosexual brother dives in front to save his brother and is killed in the process. Tell me now, who will you condemn? Who should stay away from children? Who needs God’s forgiveness more?
I leave you with 2 of my favorite Bible verses:
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” JOhn 8
“Love thy neighbor as thyself” Galatians 5:14
And my favorite, the most important line in the entire Bible, and the one that is most quickly forgotten: “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”
If you want to be judged for something you cannot control, and told you are not fit to raise or be near children, not worthy enough to have your love recognized by your country, then by all means continue saying what you are saying. But if you do not, I suggest you stop for a minute and take to heart the childhood acronym, WWJD?
It’s called trolling, kids. Just don’t feed them.
Noah: I’m sorry you feel that way, it’s a shame society encourages you to flaunt it so.
To the rest of you:
I’ve read this website for a few weeks and it seems there is not debate over whether homosexuality is okay or not, but rather, just what to do about it. The former is a debate that needs to be had.
To those who quote the bible to back up pro-gay views, do you do the same for divorce? for rape? for chastity?
You can’t just will away parts of the bible because you think someone might have translated them wrong. What if someone translated “love your neighbor as you love yourself” wrong? You’re stuck there.
We must trust in the diligence of those who wrote it down and the providence of God to oversee it, otherwise we can trust none of it.
Aside from that: Why are you so selfish as to want to raise children in an environment that you know will cause them pain, have them get made fun of and leave them looking for a mother, or a father, or a traditional family?
Marie, be Grace Adler if you so choose, but it is shows like that that have corrupted your generation, and taught you all that this is totally fine.
Perhaps I should not argue with kids your age over this, it is long decided by culture, entertainment and your liberal schools that homosexuality will be accepted, all negative side affects included.
Bonnie, my next post is about to go up addressing your exact questions. Check back tomorrow!
Bonnie,
I am proud to be a Grace Adler. I am proud that I have the ability to show someone love and respect and acceptance when he needs it most. I am proud that I have the courage and rationality to see past the blanket of ignorance you hide behind. I am proud that my best friend is gay. And I am proud to say he has shown me a unique love that only a true friend can show. I love him for who he is, and I would not have him any other way.
Children will grow up happy and healthy when surrounded by love. If two gay men or lesbians adopt children and show them unconditional love, is that better or worse than traditional families abusing their children and showing them no love? Is that better or worse than traditional families getting divorced and putting their children to even more emotional trauma?
I promise you I will stand by my friends until the day I die, gay or straight. They deserve the same love, rights, and normalcy that I take for granted every day. Until you have witnessed first-hand the struggle of a gay man or woman, don’t you dare tell me who they are is not okay.
Also – you never answered any of my questions about the straight robber vs. the gay brother. Who shall be condemned first? Who is doomed for hell? The straight man who committed murder (one of the Ten Commandments), or the gay brother who sacrificed himself to save his younger brother out of love and selflessness (illustrating the “Golden Rule” of the Bible)?
I guarantee that in your lifetime you have encountered any homosexuals, and they have touched your life in positive ways. How about the young cashier who let you take your groceries even though you were a dollar short? Or the nice woman who stopped at a busy intersection to let you turn? Or the nice young boy who picked up your wallet for you when you dropped it? These situations happen everyday to people everywhere. You remember these people in a positive light; but what if you found out they were gay?
Hate to break it to you, Bonnie, but the gays are here. I’m going to stand behind them every step of the way with every Grace Adler of the world and that’s why I’ll be marching with Ian and thousands of others.
If you’re going to stand in their way, well, then I forgive you.
Bonnie,
I am a very busy man and generally do not have time for blogs and the debate of luxury, however I will take the time to combat your comments.
I went to a Catholic High school sat through numerous hours of theology class and have had this very debate numerous times. First off I want to know where in the bible it allows for you to act as god in the capacity of judging others? I think that the world would be a better place if people would worry about their own moral development and less about others.
“Why are you so selfish as to want to raise children in an environment that you know will cause them pain,”
I have to say that the only people causing these children pain are people LIKE YOU. So if you think its the big gay monster thats praying on these kids and making it hard for innocent people and families to be happy and enjoy their life’s, your wrong. Its the advancement of your ideas that incite hatred, pain and even violence. The only thing that prevents a “non straight” family from truly being assimilated into society, is the fear and ignorant hatred from people like you. Quote me a passage from a bible that permits and promotes to openly hate innocent people and maybe ill entertain your argument.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You can’t argue with crazy.
As an atheist I find fighting religious zealots on their own terms to be a poor move tactically. If you are taught, as a matter of faith, to simply ignore reason, facts and all common sense then you are simply not going to listen to the articulated, thoughtful replies of “sinful” bloggers.
You can’t argue with crazy and it’s honestly better not to try. It may chafe against everyone’s sensibilities but I think at least a modicum of editorial control over the comments is in order.
Obvious troll posts with no possible productive outcome should simply be deleted, in my opinion.
Believer,
You’re right, I do not capitalize “god,” because I do not believe in god. In fact, I actively disbelieve, because of disgusting and discriminatory debates like this one. Regardless of what the Bible may or may not say, and how to best interpret it, it is obvious to me that all people deserve to live in a way that best enables their happiness (within a framework that does not directly harm others). If your religion can be used as a means to hate and discriminate against good people who do nothing but act as themselves, and love as they wish, then I want nothing to do with it. On the other hand, if it can be used as a way to include and love all (as I was taught in my Episcopalian high school and by many religious friends, is the ultimate message of Jesus and of Christianity) then I have the utmost respect for your faith.
Being gay isn’t a choice, it is a reality, and it hurts no one. Regardless of what you think of gay people, they will continue being gay regardless of whether or not they get married. What difference does it make to you how they celebrate their love?
Societal and religious biases on the other hand (as so clearly demonstrated by comments and this debate) directly harm many people. They prevent marriage, hospital visitations, outward commitments of love, and frankly, are an utter embarrassment to us all.
Marriage does not need to be religous – in fact it already isn’t. As a straight woman (and an atheist), I have no intention of being married in a Church, and yet I am perpetually aware of the fact that the option of marriage is open to me, and not to many people I care about.
If we want to leave behind the Church, and engage with civil unions for both straight and gay couples, fine by me, I’ll happily sign the contract that lets everyone in, over one that doesn’t.
Bonnie and Believer,
I agree with you, marriage is a religious institution that government should remain wholly uninvolved in. The problem is that we are already involved in it. Whether the law is based on an ancient religious tradition or a brand new idea hatched in the halls of Congress is irrelevant, once we codified it, we as a society subjected it to the scrutiny we afford all laws. In the United States, that includes the 14th Amendment (which I most certainly do capitalize) right to equal protection under law. If you want my union to be viewed as solely a civil union for legal purposes, your union must be as well. I’m perfectly fine with letting my church decide whether or not to call my union with another man a marriage, because I know that they will. As to your church’s view on me and my eternal union with another man, I frankly could not care less.
It is because of the views you so adamantly espouse that we have a judiciary with the authority and duty to ensure the constitutionality of our laws. There are times when the emotional opinion of the masses is one that is swayed by forces which are not right to take into account when deciding public policy. At times, these opinions lead to the passage of laws which contradict the basic foundations of our nation. I, personally, have accepted as fact the probability that marriage equality in this nation will be a product of a Supreme Court ruling for these very reasons. It is their job to intervene here, where Congress has made a law based on personal beliefs which stands in opposition to everything that this nation was founded to protect. These protections and structures are the reason that the United States is the world’s most resilient and longest-lasting democracy in history.
As to the offensive argument that homosexuals should be kept away from children, it shows a rather unfortunate lack of experience on the issue on your part. Studies have never shown any problem with same-sex couples parenting, let alone having contact with children at all. I daresay that my sister would have been harmfully affected by me moving out when I revealed I was gay at age 15, when she was 8. It has not made her a lesbian, nor promiscuous, nor less intelligent, nor a drug addict. Before you dismiss this as “not what you meant,” please realize that this is the logical extreme of your statement.
As to same-sex couples parenting, the data is sparse, but what exists fails to support your argument. No statistically significant difference in intelligence, emotional stability, drug use, incarceration, earnings, likelihood of college graduation, or any other indicator of a good upbringing shows. If we take into account the statistically insignificant (differences within the margin of error,) then same-sex couples are slightly better parents. I certainly hope nobody attempts to respond by pointing to the myriad of studies which show that children of single parents do show a correlation with the aforementioned factors and attempts to say “it’s because they need a mother and a father.” No, children need two parents because they need to have someone around who can provide the personal relationships they need to develop into healthy and productive human beings. Whether that be one man and one woman, two men, or two women is irrelevant.
Your ability to paraphrase the Bible (again, which I capitalize) lends minimal support to the argument you attempt to make. We have long established that a verbatim acceptance of the Bible is an ineffective method of determining public policy. That is why public policy can only be led by the basic values of the Judeo-Christian tradition: the importance of family, respect for others, and a commitment to making the world a better place. The specific content, by virtue of its association with such things as the stoning of virgins, the ban on shellfish, and polygamy, is invalid for consideration in the formation of our laws.
I do appreciate your concerns on the issue, but the structures and institutions of American society require that the concept of marriage be entirely removed from government control and all similar entities be renamed civil unions which are open to all legally consenting adults not within a degree of relation which makes the union provably unsafe or, alternatively, that marriage be opened up to all. The courts only have the power to do the latter, so I suggest you tell your Congressman to do the former if you’re that worried about me getting a marriage license.
The truth as I see it is the issue of civil rights, which are deserved by every person, period. So many of us are living better lives today because someone before us fought for our rights. Women, blacks, handicapped, the elderly, Veterans, children, to name just a few – are living better lives because others stood up, spoke out, marched, and fought for them. I look forward to joining the march this weekend. Thanks, Ian, and Politicizer, for this article.
Why are we looking towards the bible for moral guidance? The vast majority of it is nothing more then the scribbles of a primitive tribe trying to work out it’s place in the geography around them.
Let’s look at what the bible advocates:
1) getting your father drunk and having sex with him (a mange no less … see Noah).
2) stoning disobedient children.
3) selling your daughter into slavery.
4) “Never wear clothes made of wool and linen woven together.” -Deuteronomy 22:11 (quick, check your closet; you still might have time to avoid hell).
and many many more.
Why, I wonder, don’t fundementalists follow these laws? Jesus created a second covenant, and absolved them of these issues. Which brings us to the major crux of the problem: if Jesus had to tell people that he no longer wished them to stone disobedient kids, then that means that at some point stoning your kid for talking back to you was a moral thing to do.
Sounds fine, right? But doesn’t that strike you as moral relativism; you know, that naughty word that fundementalists use against atheists and people of faith that aren’t bat-shit crazy? But since I’m being really nice, I’ll give you a way out: morality is whatever god says it is. That gets rid of the moral relativism aspect. Happy? Fine, but in that case you have to admit to me that if god decided that stoning your kids was a good teaching tool again, you’d have to do it. Otherwise, you’d be immoral.
art
ps for the record, i’m a pretty strong believer in god, i just find the notion that people follow a dead document to be detestable.
I will start by first start by stating that I am an openly gay male in a devoted, long-term relationship. I also have worked with children for several years and have yet to hurt them emotionally, mentally, or physically.
It seems to me that the main problem with gay marriage is the word marriage. Marriage is one of the sacraments and thus is in religious territory and defined by religious terms. I, however, refuse to be offered something separate but equal, such as a civil union, because as we all know, separate but equal is never equal. So I have another proposal. The United States was built on many important ideas, one of which was the separation of church and state. I think we should do just that. Who decided that the government could hand out marriages, something that is by definition a religious act? If you want to get married, go to church. Individual churches or sects can decide who they will marry, and marriages will have no meaning outside of the church. BUT if you want the rights and financial advantages currently offered by the government under the name “marriage” you can go and get a civil union; straight and gay couples BOTH. People do not get tax cuts for being baptized, or confirmed, or anointed when they are sick, or for taking part in any of the other sacraments. Why should people receive government benefits for matrimony? Civil unions for all; and then hopefully I won’t have to hear any more of these ridiculous uneducated religious arguments.
I’ve said it already and I will say it again, perhaps you are too young to understand marriage as a social construct rather than as a qualification of rights. If you want God’s blessing, go get married – if you don’t get a civil union. I, personally, as a constitutional conservative as well, think people can do whatever they want with their lives and “civil unions.” Just stay away from my town, my state and what we define as marriage.
To Marie (and Stephanie somewhat): You are sacrificing religious values to accommodate your friends. You should do the opposite and encourage your friends to live a life in Christ. To answer your question, of course a man, gay or not, who sacrifices his life, has performed a great honor – is his mortal sin abolished? I cannot know.
Stephanie: Though you do not agree with me on this issue, do not let our differences turn your heart away from God. Simply because we do not have the same Christianity (it seems you come from the episcopal sort) does not mean you need to throw it all off.
Anthony John: Named after Saints as you are, I’d suggest looking up what they said and what they believed, particularly John’s condemnation of sexual deviance.
Colin: You may never know how you could have affected your sister at such a young age. You may have confused her, made her uncomfortable or sent her into some kind of deep emotional (I guess your generation calls this “emo”) stage.
Patricia: These movements were about things that could not be changed. Blacks cannot be un-blacked, women cannot be made men, nor did either of these groups ask for more than what the Bible demands they receive. There is living proof that people who were once “gay” can become straight – google it – and then tell me if it’s worth a societal movement.
Art: What of Romans? Of the letters? of Acts. These are verifiable New Testament sources, not old Jewish laws.
Bonnie,
First of all, sexuality is not a choice. Some people have more fluid and flexible ideas of their own gender and sexuality, but others don’t. I assume that you couldn’t become gay if you wanted, just as I couldn’t become straight if I wanted.
Either way, LGBT people deserve equal rights. You can choose to be Christian (though I wouldn’t call you one), and the government protects that choice. Therefore, if I could somehow choose to be gay (which I didn’t, I assure you), then the government should protect me from bigots like you.
Bonnie,
I have read the entirety of this comment stream, and have simply reached the end of my patience with your tactic of dismissing the passionate and logical arguments of those on this stream who disagree with your views on the morality of homosexuality simply because of the age of the poster. I am approaching thirty, I AM married, I DO have a child, I AM a Christian minister, I HAVE presided over marriage ceremonies, I DO have a seminary education, and as such, cannot be dismissed as “too young,” or not knowledgeable about the pain and struggle of marriage and of raising children in a sinful world. Just stop it. It is entirely disrespectful, is simply infantile, and ironically shows your interlocutors to be of greater maturity than you.
Besides, your comments forget Jesus’ admonition to “let the little children come forward.” Beyond the obvious issue of calling men and women old enough to die for their country “children,” it speaks to a vital aspect of Jesus’ message-God loves ALL of God’s creation, and ALL of God’s creation can act as emissaries of Christ’s love. Or do we forget that we must have the faith of a child? Having served as a full-time youth minister for five years, I can guarantee that wisdom often comes from the mouths of the young. The energy and excitement of youth has been combined with the wisdom of age many times throughout history to change the world. If you seek to turn back the tide of “liberals,” you might consider engaging with youth and harnessing their energy. If you fail to do so, you might turn around one day and discover that even your state and city, who now hold a “one man, one woman” view of marriage, may be one of the states signing a gay marriage law into effect.
My prayers are with you, my sister in Christ.
Shalom, Dan Randazzo
I am a married (to a man) mother and a Christian. If I could be in Washington, I would be proud to be able to March with Ian. I think he should be afforded every right that I am. He is an American citizen and should have every right (not just marriage) that I have.
I have often wondered why the government doesn’t just get out of the marriage debate and create civil unions for everyone. What you do in church should be COMPLETELY separate from what you do under the law. It would benefit another group of people besides LGBTs. I have known many older couples who want so strongly to be married but are not able to accept the legal ramifications of getting married (normally financial ones). They feel trapped that they cannot have God bless their union simply because they don’t want the government to recognize it. They would not have a problem if church and state were truly separate.
So can any of you out there who are perhaps more politically aware then I am, tell my why the US government can’t change to only having civil unions.
Bonnie,
Are you aware of the institution of civil marriage, which carries with it hundreds of rights and obligations not associated with religious marriage?
Furthermore, by what right do you assert your religion and beliefs over my own as the “correct” way by which the government — any government — should define marriage? Do constitutional conservatives only believe in freedom of religion for Christians, now?
As to your comments to Marie and Stephanie — they are not ignoring religious values; they are ignoring YOUR religious values. Just because they do not embrace your particularly intolerant strand of Christianity doesn’t mean that they’re bending or ignoring the Word of G-d in any way. G-d works in mysterious ways, and human beings are subject to human error — what makes you think the translators of the Bible were any different?
Were you aware that the Bible was written and translated before the invention of English punctuation? Who got to decide what punctuation went where? By what hubris do you declare your version of the punctuation, translation, and interpretation of G-d’s word to be “correct”, while dismissing all others?
As someone who has felt the awesome, warm, and embracing presence of G-d, I reject any vision of G-d which frowns upon a true loving relationship between two good people; I reject it a thousand times, for what the human hand has wrongly translated cannot and can never contradict the loving presence of my Creator.
Sweetie, I’m 28; and arguments made from the position of authority show that the person has nothing else to base their arguments on.
In essence what you’re saying is: listen to me, I’m old. Any fool will see that that is a non-sequitur.
“Art: What of Romans? Of the letters? of Acts. These are verifiable New Testament sources, not old Jewish laws.”
Why don’t you address my fundamental point about the dubious nature of morality and the bible? Showing me more passages from a book, is not going to make my point any less substantial: you are either a moral relativist, or morality is what god says it is, in which case you have to accept that anything can be moral.
Please answer these points instead of showing me more passages, and telling me how old you are.
art
Bonnie,
Stop using the bible to justify your hatred and fear of homosexuals and anyone else who is different. Im willing to bet my soul people like you have a special place reserved in hell.
Bonnie,
To Marie (and Stephanie somewhat): You are sacrificing religious values to accommodate your friends. You should do the opposite and encourage your friends to live a life in Christ. To answer your question, of course a man, gay or not, who sacrifices his life, has performed a great honor – is his mortal sin abolished? I cannot know.
I am not sacrificing my religious values; in fact, I am following my religious values. I, as a Christian, am called to love my neighbor as myself, and to do unto him as I would have do unto me. I cannot stress this message enough. I am loving my neighbor, gay or straight, and treating him as I would want to be treated.
I would want my neighbor to march for my rights, because there is no reason why I should not do it for him. I would want my neighbor to be happily married with the chance to raise a family, because, by chance, I am straight and given that right by birth.
You have no legitimate reason for denying gays happiness in love because you are ignoring Jesus’ main message which calls us to LOVE, not “love everyone who is like you and hate the other and condemn them to hell.” When we love and forgive, everything falls into place.
I don’t have to like you, but I love you simply because you are my neighbor, and I forgive you for your ignorance.
To everyone else who will be at the march, or who would like to be at the march – I hope you will be marching with me and not against me. I hope you see that gays and lesbians are people, too, and they should be allowed to have the same chances at happiness that straight men and women do.
To everyone else who disagrees with me – I’m sorry.
To Marie, you say it perfectly. Why can’t others see how simple this is? We, as Christians, know that God is All-loving. That means God loves everyone, gay or straight, black or white, short or tall…EVERYONE! And that also means that we all deserve the same rights. As God has taught me and I have taught my children, do unto others…a concept I live by, so easy and so simple!
Wow. Just wow, Bonnie.
First and foremost, how dare you imply that “I might not know how I have impacted my sister” without having any basis for that comment? My sister is doing well in school (thanks, in large part to her big brother helping her pass math,) is popular, contributes to her community, and has goals that she actively works toward every day. The only negative impact that my sexuality had on her is that children raised by people of your ilk have been trained to scorn her. The sins of their pseudo-religious convictions are not on my head.
Beyond the disgusting personal comment you make with no knowledge of my sister’s life, it is increasingly apparent that you are stuck in a traditional mindset for the sole reason of it being tradition. That small-minded kind of thinking transcends this socio-political debate and expands into your very worldview, which is one that demands all others agree with you or you will dismiss their opinions as unfounded. Whether you dismiss us based on our age, our religion, our background, or anything else, you refuse to address the argument on rational merits.
As a constitutional conservative, you cannot deny the existence of the 14th Amendment, which guarantees equal protection under law. The law creates no legal distinction between men and women, which means it cannot tell an adult man he cannot marry another consenting adult man if an adult woman is permitted to do so. It’s not a radical idea, it’s what the U.S. Constitution demands. That means, it applies to the states, too. Sorry, your town and your state don’t get to pick and choose about the Constitution, unless of course you’d like to secede, in which case I wish you lots of luck in taking on the U.S. military.
Frankly, the Bible has no logical place in this discussion, as the purpose of the march, as stated on its website (which somehow I doubt you’ve looked at) is “Equal protection for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender people in all matters governed by civil law in all 50 states. Now.” Civil law, due to the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, cannot take the Bible into account. As such, all biblical arguments are moot as they pertain to this march. You are then left solely with what you can substantiate with rational thought and empirical statistics, which, unfortunately for your side, is not a whole lot. The reason that same-sex marriage is viewed as inevitable by so many, even among those who oppose it, is that eventually, our society demands that there be a rational basis for our policies.
Finally, in reference to your comment on the so-called “ex-gays,” I would point out that in most cases, psychotherapy to change a person’s sexual orientation is unsuccessful and often causes grave psychological problems. That is why the American Psychiatric Association, the governing body for American psychiatrists, all but bans the practice. Oh, but I’m sure the book written before the development of psychology knows more about the function of the brain than people who spend their lives studying it. Oh wait, no, that makes no sense. Your support of these efforts shows just how ruthless you are in your support of this heinous psuedo-Bible-driven society that you argue for.
One day you shall stand before your maker and He shall demand of you an answer to this: “Why would you follow a book which has no provable basis beyond that someone else told you it was true above the clear good of your fellow man?” I hope, for the sake of your eternal soul, that you have a really good answer.
Bonnie,
Marriage is about a relationship with god? Then why do we marry another person instead of a god? And which god is it about having a relationship with? There are more than 2,850 of them you know. (Godchecker.com)
Marriage is between a man and a woman according to the Bible? Really? According to the Bible marriage is between a man, any number of women and countless concubines.
And who are you to be shoving your religion on the entire world anyway. Would you want, say, a Muslim to tell you that “Marriage is between a man and up to four women–and put that burqa on now!”? You live your life according to your beliefs and leave others to live according to theirs.
The ultimate issue here is that there are no externalities associated with gay marriage. None.
So if there are no externalities why is it anyone’s business if two gay people marry? You might not find gay marriage to be aesthetically pleasing, but so what? That’s not an externality (if it was, then we’d be regulating all sorts of things that people simply don’t ‘like’).
And frankly, who cares if your religious sensibilities are offended. People are offended all the time, that doesn’t mean we should remove people’s rights.
art
Bonnie,
Again to add.. Who are you to play G-d?
If you state that you are such an adherent of the teachings of Jesus, you should really think about following them. He tells us to “love thy neighbor as thyself”, “he who is without sin shall cast the first stone”, and, unlike you, he did not dismiss children for being children (although we are all adults according to your view of the constitution and more so according to the Bible) “let the little children come to me”.
By persecuting, you are thus playing the part of judge, which, if you are Christian, reserved for G-d and G-d alone (as Jesus is G-d). By doing so, you thus claim that you have these powers of G-d, which is blasphemy and breaks one of the 10 commandments “You shall have no other G-d before me”.
You are plenty in the right to say that your religious beliefs disagrees with homosexuality, but the moment you begin persecuting, you begin an even greater sin yourself.
What an individual does is between them and G-d, and G-d alone. You have no rights in the eyes of G-d to come between that according to your faith.
As a Catholic who had the same beliefs as you once upon a time and grew up going to Catholic school (Kindergarten through 12th grade), I can tell that you know very little about your own faith. You should study its history and *EVERY* aspect of your faith and not just what you happen to hear during sermons and service readings.
The G-d who loves all would be sad to know that you have not been heeding his words of love and are, instead, using Satan’s words of hate.
I will pray for you.
For everyone else,
As I stated, I used to be homophobic. Today, I would be proud to walk as a straight man in an LBGT Rights parade and support them.
Homosexual parents have proven in countless studies to be better parents on average than heterosexual ones. They have almost no cases of abuse of any sort, tend to be better off financially for the children, are much more likely to stay as a couple, and give much more attention to them.
The studies have surmised that this is because a homosexual couple’s choice to have a child is what makes the difference.
Because of the fact that homosexuals cannot have children of their own through the normal biological methods, their only option is to make an active choice to raise a child, whereas heterosexual relationships can create a child by “accident”. Then, because of the adoption laws in those states that allow homosexual adoption, these couples must prove that they are able and willing to take care of the child.
I’ll put a child in a homosexual couple family any day than leave them in an understaffed orphanage, bounce them from foster home to foster home, or put them with an abusive heterosexual couple.
Just remember, if you are going to make an argument from religion, know all the beliefs, and remember that you won’t find out if your religion is right or wrong until you die.
“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”
-Matthew 7:1